Russ, the new kids on the block that you have had spotty success with are grown in petrie dishes or rooted cuttings from plants grown in petrie dishes. Cheyenne Spirit came from seed. I talked to the folks at Walter's Gardens in Zeeland, MI - wholesale growers, and they said it overwintered well in their trials. I have seeds I will be starting this week. I have several of the new varieties of cone flowers that have over wintered in my garden. One thing I do not do is much fertilizing. Mostly just OrganiMax compost in the spring. Wish I could give you more information, but we will have to wait and see. Best And Happy Yardening, Nancy.